For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.
Psalm 139:13-16
As we continue to look into the issue of body image- we must begin by reading Psalm 139. For within this jewel of scripture we find truth about our body. Our Lord and Creator was there- in the beginning. We were an embryo, unformed and shapeless- and He in His sovereign power and intimate design, formed and shaped us as the Potter shapes the clay. We know that all God does is perfect- and His creation of our figure is certainly no exception. Thus, I know each time I criticize my body or despair of my appearance, I am calling into question God’s perfection, plan and sovereignty. This is nothing short of sin. I often read this Psalm in times like that- to realign my thought life with the Word of God.
Another set of verses that speaks directly to us regarding this issue of body image is 1 Peter 3:3-4, " Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious."
It is important to note that as Peter speaks of the braiding of hair, gold jewelry and clothing it is not speaking specifically of these things but as a warning against a preoccupation with outward appearance. Just as the culture Peter wrote to during the first century, so to our culture is obsessed with appearance and excess. Now, many women I have spoken with in the last few years will talk of their ever-controlling emotions. I, too, have unfortunately believed the lie that my feelings are too strong for me to overcome. Whether these emotions are about relationships, our walk or body image- the truth remains the same: God’s word is truer than anything I feel or experience. If we do not get to a place where we believe this and stand upon this, the reading of God’s Holy writ will not be as effective in conforming our thought life to His. I say ‘not as’ because God does promise that His word will never return void.
With all this as our base, I would say that in my experience, Body Image at its root is more of an issue of contentment than anything else.
"Two women looked through prison bars, one saw mud, the other saw stars."
While this is a simplistic illustration- it does show the power of perspective. All of our perspective and thought life must be filtered through the Word of God. This is the only thing that is true, unchanging and unfailing. Other's opinions, the culture and our own thoughts will shift, change and inevitably, fail. Contentment is a huge topic that we could discuss for weeks- so I am going to try to summarize it in a paragraph. Personally speaking, God has been working this issue through my heart for the last few months. While I will not pretend to have any prolific thoughts, I will say that God has unveiled my eyes to see that nearly every hardship or struggle is founded in the state of discontentment. With this, is it possible that those hardships can be transformed into joyous sanctification through finding contentment? Paul certainly stressed this!
For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:10
Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. - Philippians 4:11
The Greek word for content is eudokeo. This can be defined as: think it good, choose, determine, decide to do willingly. What would it look like if we accepted the lot and portion God has given us in all facets of life and thought it good? If we willingly chose joy over want? This is not the way of our world today- especially in America! And so, as Linda Dillow writes in her book, Calm My Anxious Heart, "We become what we think- our thought life, not our circumstances, determines whether we are content." One powerful tool in being "transformed by the renewing of our mind" is to memorize and meditate on Philippians 4:8. A wise friend of mine suggested this when I was facing some serious anxiety and it proved to be a great help! Another way to think of contentment is as accepting God's sovereign control over all of life's circumstances. What joy I experience - and true peace - when I accept God's ordained plan for my illness right now. When I stop fighting my Lord and start resting in HIS ways- the ONLY way that is good and right and perfect- the way that will bring Him the most glory. And so I hope you have seen, as I have, that CONTENTMENT is the issue we must pray over and meditate upon. A poor, as well as an enflated body image will be resolved when we learn that contentment alone is in Christ Jesus.
The writers of the blog "GirlTalk" have some excellent thoughts to share on this very subject:
You see, women believe that physical beauty will make them happy, successful, popular among the women, desirable to the men – so they pursue it with a fury! Physical beauty, however, does not deliver as advertised. Proverbs 31:30 reveals the falsehood and the futility of this quest for beauty: Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain. Even if every girl did "feel beautiful just the way she is," it wouldn’t bring her true joy or lasting happiness or solve even one of her problems. Truth be told, what we all deserve is not to feel beautiful but rather to be condemned to hell for sinfully seeking to attract the worship of our fellow creatures instead of living to bring glory to God. God did not send Jesus to this earth to die so that women could get over their self-esteem problem and feel better about themselves. No, He sent his Son to die to rescue us from our sinful, futile quest for physical beauty and to reveal to us the satisfaction that comes from knowing God—whether we are beautiful or not! What freedom and hope is found in Christ! We don’t need to feel beautiful about ourselves to find happiness! In fact, we’re better off not even thinking about ourselves. Rather, God has offered us in Jesus Christ forgiveness, hope, freedom from sin and a joy that never ends.
What wise words and a biblical perspective on physical beauty!
To close, I want us to reflect on all that we have learned though God's word and the wisdom of others who have hidden God's word in their hearts! I know for me, the process of writing this morning has been both very convicting and revealing! Our role now is to live this out- is to share this with the women in our lives and to begin to contribute to setting apart Christians from the culture. This starts with being changed individually and then lovingly sharing it with those God has placed in our lives. Because as Ligon Duncan bluntly states, "Someone is teaching women principles of womanhood. Is it the church, or the world?" (J. Ligon Duncan & Susan Hunt, Women’s Ministry in the Local Church).
Being refined by the Father, Kate
49 comments:
Thanks Kate! I really want to understand this problem more. I like the idea of contentment- a rare jewel among Christians.
Kate, You put together a very convincing and all-encompassing piece on this subject. I really enjoyed the scripture, because I too have been realizing how much more I need to be depending on that for all I need. I will be thinking over the thoughts presented for many days to come. I hope I can transform my thinking and take pride only in Christ!
from what you've written, it sounds like you believe God picks the exact genes that you possess (and if i'm wrong, please let me know). my question about that comes because there are only a limited amount of genes available at conception - those from the mother and the father. does that mean the right people had to have babies all the way back in history so that God would have the right genes to make you as He wants? i'm not trying to undermine your belief in your beauty, i'm just wondering about how the genetics of that works out.
karen (obviously) =)
Kate, Every time I read your blogs I am so impressed at your writing. You really should think about writing a book. You truly have a gift for writing and understanding the scriptures. I see now that while you were a wonderful employee your chosen path is indeed women's ministry.
I loved the scriptures in this entry and had never read the verse from Peter before. I will definetely be forwarding this to my lady friends in the hopes that it can insprire them as much as it has me. Thank you for taking the time to write on a subject that is very much present in today's world, and very much an obstical to overcome.
If the answer to Karen's question is a "yes" than I have a question.
If God picks the genes we are to have from our parent's gene pool, and one of those genes results in a disease/retardation/deformity than wouldn't it seem to be that not all of God's "creation" is perfect? I mean, it seems that all illnesses etc, are only a result of sin and therefore, they lack the quality of perfection. If this is true can we say, "Thus, I know each time I criticize my body or despair of my appearance, I am calling into question God’s perfection."
Wow, i gotta throw a few quick thoughts off the top of my head.
First off, we need to realize that, if Psalm 139 is true and God "knits us together in our mothers womb" and "forms us" and makes us in a wonderful and fearful way He is the creator and sustainor of genetics. As Christians we don't believe in a God who simply sets things into motion and lets them run their course. He knew our genes intimately. In a tal on body image i gave a testimony of my two friends with downs syndrome who have taught me so very much about life. They have some messed up genes, but they know God made them and loves them and is well pleased with them. They put me to shame in their devotion and worship and desire to please the Lord, but that's another story. Yes, God forms ugly people. I thank Him each day for that. What i'd really like to know is what kind of genes Jesus had, eh?
Anonymous, that is an important question. We know God's creation is all fallen. When sin entered the world, death and disease can with it. We know Christ will restore all things, and there will be no more of the "former things." Rev. 21:4. Actually, that verse says more about this now that i think about it. In heaven, it says, there will not be any death, mourning, crying, or pain. These things are part of the wages (or the beginning of the wages) of sin. I believe some of the old testament law speaks to this as well, where sometimes sin offerings must be made for disease and sickness. Pretty crazy, huh? But you already touched on that in your post. You're really asking a bigger question, one with a much more difficult answer. If God formed our bodies the way they are, He had to create something that was fallen, right? This is a much larger question than i am qualified to write upon. God is not responsible for sin, yet there is sin, and He is sovereign in EVERYTHING, so how is it that sin seems to outdo the Lord's work in creation? It's a huge huge question, and one we may have to struggle with in another post perhaps. But i will say that God uses sin and is glorified through our sin in some pretty amazing ways. He does form our bodies, actually much much more than that ("in your book are written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me."), and He has a plan for it all. His plan includes redemption and wrath and mercy and justice and ultimately culminates with His own glory, which is His ultimate goal, and should be ours as well.
But i need to stop with just a few short musings. Thanks for the post!
There are a few more thoughts that i was hopeing Jeremy might write on, but i can't leave it alone without filling in a bit.
We also need to look at how we define "perfection." Might we have a different idea than God? The Lord seems to plan things that don't seem good to us, but are all part of His will in the end. Take the crucifixion, for example. It was the single most horrifying act on earth, but was orchestrated by God. It seems to me that God retains the right to create things as He wants, not needing to live up to our expectations.
We also need to hammer the point home that God did not just set things into motion thousands of years ago. Psalm 139 says that God is intimately involved in our creation. Our existence is entirely dependent upon God. If God stopped upholding and sustaining everything that happens, "the universe would blow up," as mu friend says. It's a weird kind of deism or bordering open theism that beleives God set things into motion and is standing back watching them play out now. Deformed/deiseased/retarded babies are created, sustained, and loved by God. They are not lesser forms of life, and God doesn't consider these people "messed up" because He planned them out that way. That's what i meant to say before. Let's have some more bloggage on this!!!
Sorry Lickel about not writing in here faster. I was going to do it tonight, and by the time I got in here, you had written already.
I think sometimes we find these type of topics so difficult because we always default into human mode when thinking about them, instead of Godly mode. For example, when we speak about perfection, we view it with our own thoughts of perfection. But who is to say what is or is not perfect? If I claim to be perfect (or even good in any way), I am a self-absorbed bigot, who has know idea about the Biblical idea and general reality of Sin. We are all scarred with sin, so we are all imperfect in a way. Is a Autistic, or Downs Syndrom child less perfect in Gods sight? It would incredibly hard to create a way of thinking that supported that idea, and the Bible certainly would not support that idea. Like Lickel quoted, "[God] knits us together in our mothers wombs." Does God knit less for kids that have worldly disabilities? So is God less then perfect because we are created not-perfect (scarred by sin, death and disease)? This cannot be true, because God will make all things right, and our ways or lesser than His ways, and who can view into the thoughts of God? I fear that anyone who trys to diminish Gods authoirty and perfection over all creation is walking on a very thin and dangerous line. Just a few thoughts. Please everyone, lets throw more ideas out here! :)
Jeremy Wenzel
About that last post I made: the more I thought about it I am not sure if "bigot" is the right word to use to describe someone who finds themselves perfect. But I think my point was still made. Sorry about any confusion with that.
Jeremy
Kyle,
Not to move the discussion off this page, but i posted some of those same questions you brought up on my blog. I'd like to hear more about God resting from creation, his decree, and still being intimately involved in creation. Maybe we shouldn't use the word "creation" with respect to Psalm 139, but if the Psalmist uses words like "knitted" and "woven" to talk about his formation what have we left to say about God's work in the process unless we say that the Psalm is poetry and merely figures of speech. I may not be as opposed to that idea as most would think, but nobody's brought it up yet. So i take back using the word "creation" before, thanks for catching that Kyle. But i need to hear more about God's activity with His creation and how the world plays out through mediate acts. Perhaps a good definition of God's ordination is needed. And maybe a quick overview of traducianism. Thanks.
Andy,
I was posting on your blog as you were posting here.
i'm glad to see that you guys understand the implications of what was said - too many people say things without really understanding what they are saying or just say something that sounds nice without actually believing it.
another question - mutation rates can be statistically defined - or perhaps probability...i never really liked numbers =). anyway, for instance, down's syndrome is one in (approximately) 750 live births and RNA viruses have mutation rates between 10^-3 to 10^-5 per base per generation. is this so consistent because He wants us to have faith that He's in charge? or because God likes to play the numbers game? i don't know if we can have a definite answer to this question...but what do you guys think? =)
karen
ps nathan and i were talking about all this yesterday and i just started laughing...because the thought occurred to me that (if God had human reactions to things) God would look at us like we look at the developmentally disabled. i mean how many times does He have to tell/show us something before we learn it? obviously God doesn't look at us like that but it's a humbling thought considering He probably has reason to. =)
ok i'm done now.
Karen,
I loved your PS!
Yes, i second Kyle's remarks, Karen. Funny.
I think something Kyle said earlier woudl be good to bring up here, namely, that our bodies are formed under the influence of sin. "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." again Psalm 51:5. Our bodies are influenced by sin, but how do we then understand the fact that God does not "beget imperfection." That's the thought i'm wondering about after your post, Karen. It is scriptural that disease is a consequence of sin so our problem is still that God cannot be the author of bringing into existence those RNA virus mutations you are talking about. Is this right?
In the amazing words of Teen Girl Squad; "woot." Let's hear it Kate! (when you get home from work).
Hey...I haven't even had a chance to READ all of these comments b/c I got home from work and then did the study with the girls here...so now it is time to read and go to bed. I do hope tomorrow I will get a chance to comment...or add to the conversation.
Thank you for all your input and thoughts...keep it coming!
-Kate
oh my... I fear today will not provide time either...as I have work and meetings, etc all day and night!
I WILL get to this as it is important... but please continue on without me.
and Lickel- "woot" ...haha
After reading Kyle's response I reread the post. Kate said something that I'm a little confused about that I didn't catch at first. She said that Peter is not specifically speaking of braiding hair or wearing jewelery, but as a warning against preoccupation. If this is true then why doesn't Peter say that? Why does he say very clearly that our adorning shouldn't be external? I just think Kate is reading into that verse a lot.
"Yeah, you are..." well, we were forewarned. Tact is not a strong suit of Mr. Borg, but that's something i've learned to love about the guy.
Yessir, 1 Peter 3:3-5 or so is good. And a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. Thanks Kyle for turning our eyes to God's Word to see that the beauty God sees is internal, not external. Again, 1 Samuel 16:7 "...For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks at the physical appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." It is right to see that desiring to be physically attractive in the eyes of men is sinful. I didn't do a good job of driving this point home in a recent talk, but I quoted Leonard Ravenhill- "I'm sick of Christians saying you need to use Jesus to get a better self-image. Your self-image is crucified on the cross and you got a NEW ONE!" I'm not 100% certain what he means by the new self image, but i hope it has to do with being redeemed and found in Christ- that being our identity. Maybe that's worthwhile.
in response to lickel, the mutations occur because the enzymes involved mess up. even mistakes that occur because of damage to the dna (such as by uv) would be because we weren't made with uv protection. =)
also, i was wondering if the bodily resurrection played into this at all - thanks to kyle for highlighting that what really matters is the incorruptible body that we will receive for eternity. and i'm glad (though sometimes frustrated) that we don't have a definite explanation than that for what that body will be like. i agree that body image is an overrated concept. we worry too much about it - way too much time (not even addressing the money issue) is spent on things that are perishable. even ten minutes a day (which is an underestimate for most in my experience) adds up to 5 hours a month! ridiculous.
karen
ps kyle you make me giggle.
Thank you for your thought-provoking discussion here! I haven't even had 5 minutes to sit down and ready the entire thing but I did want to address a few things...
Regarding my comment on 1 Peter:
To be honest, that was from a commentary...which of course I lost my notes and cannot find WHICH commentary. :) Note to self: don't lose my resources and references!
But, I would love to hear what others think of 1 Peter as it is an exceptional verse that interests many women.
Secondly, I must make a disclaimer. My blog is not as theologically "on" as Kyle's...or a host of others- it is more a place for me to articulate my thoughts and ask for input. I do not have the theological know-how of most- but do desire so much to grow in that area throughout my life. So- I agree that often times I prob. misinterpret and I appreciate correction- letting me know that i may be reading into it and letting me know how or why you think this so that I can grow in my understanding and not just know that it may be incorrect. :) Thanks!
Lastly, I appreciate your latest comments Kyle- the bottom line is that this isn't about "body image" but a correct view of ourselves (i.e. our depraved nature) and a knowing that God must and should be glorified. I appreciated the quote by girl talk b/c it vocalized what you were saying in a great and blunt way! (Dare I say...more blunt than you? :) ) As I mentioned, issues with body image stem from discontentment which often times is a result of too much focus on ourselves and not enough on the Lord. "He is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him."
Please continue on in the discussion. I just arrived home and must eat dinner, and a great many other things. Also, we will be leaving for Chicago on Thursday after work. So please go on and I will return excited to learn and grow and be challenged.
Completely in need of His wisdom,
Kate
I'm still not sure I would agree with my wife if she thinks that she is fat, but that could be because i'm still in the honeymoon phase. She's not, by the way...
I haven't been deeply engrossed in the conversation here but I've been checking in and perusing. Everyone is making some very delicious points on this topic! And let me just toot some horns here. This little community of bloggers and blog-readers is continuing to prove itself an insightful, God-focused bunch. It's great.
Okay, now my question: Why is it sinful to want to look good outwardly? Isn't God the author of beauty? We see it in nature, we see it in art, and we see it in other people. I mean, when we are getting ready in the morning, we comb our hair and put on decent clothes, so that we look good. Is it sinful to be attentive to our outward appearance? All of you here are married. Weren't/aren't you physically attracted to your spouses? Should we throw physical attractiveness out the window as unspiritual? What do we make of Song of Solomon?
What do y'all think? Am I out of line? Are these reasonable questions?
Wow! Great questions Dana and great thoughts regarding those questions Kyle!
I will return late Sunday to view all the conversation-
And I have to say that I am just delighted b/c this is WHY we blog isn't it? To spur conversations to help us know our God more... and more rightly view Him as He is!
Good words everyone! This seems like a lively blog! I would say this: I believe it is completely appropriate and biblical for a husband to present himself as physically attractive to his wife, and wife to her husband(somewhat echoing Kyle on his Song of Solomon comments).
Now when I say "present himself/herself", I mean one to take this in a sense where grace is being imparted on both ends, for more time then not, our bodies fall very short of what one may normally view as attractive. This idea of grace is extremely important, and John Piper made a very helpful point concerning it in a sermon I listened to recently.
In Genesis, we read that Adam and Eve were "naked, and not ashamed." Piper comments that although Adam and Eve were probably gorgeous to look at, the text doesn't seem to imply that their looks had anything to do with being unashamed of their physical appearance. The reason Piper says this stems from the result of their sin, namely, they "realized they were naked and sewed fig leaves together to make coverings for themselves." Now, again, the text here is not implying that Adam and Eve suddenly became physically ugly post-fall, but merely realized they were naked! Piper makes this statement: What Adam was receiving from God vertically (grace), he was bening out towards his wife horizontally. When Adam and Eve sinned, the vertical was immediately severed, and hence the horizontal was immediately severed also. Therefore, one of the many beauties of Christ is the redemptoin of our bodies in marraige. What we have received from Christ (grace), we now are commanded to show to our spouse, and when we look at his/her body, we are to show them the same grace that Christ showed on the cross to sinners. And now for a John Piper quote:
"All lovers apart from Christ are brutal in the end." (taken from a sermon on Eze. 16)
Joe Arant
Nice discussion questions! Borg, i'd love to hear more about how you delight in your wife's body "because" you delight in her heart. Is that just a way of saying the adoration you have is of her heart and spirit first, and that leads to the rest of the body? Joe, good use of Piper's stuff. Joanna and i recently went through that sermon series, although i don't understand everything that he is getting at in the particular sermon you quoted from. I get the "bending out grace" stuff, but don't realy get the "God redeeming our bodies through marriage" part. I thought we get new bodies eventually, but maybe there's a different sense of "redeemed" here that i'm not picking up on. Any thoughts?
Also, in response to Dana's sweet comments, I guess the question boils down to "who are we trying to impress?" There is a purpose in God's stating over and over again that the beauty He sees is inward, NOT outward. Normally, when we get up in the morning and we think we should dress out of respect and reverence for our Holy God we don't dress in a way that calls attention to our physical appearance. That's the whole reason my Amish neighbors wear solid grey or blue clothes- they understand the temptation to draw attention to themselves and want to stay away from it. Men and women are both quietly understanding of the power of physical attraction between the sexes, but businessmen and others know how to look in order to command attection from me. But the point is that our desire for that attention is sin, because it is taking the place of a desire for God, or it is not acknowledging that we have the love and affection of an almighty God. I mean, attention from a guy or a girl is way less cool than the omnipotent omnipresent attention of the God of the universe. Well, maybe cool isn't the right word- scary, awesome, something like that would be better. But where does our heart lie with the way we look to other people. Is it to magnify God or to glorify ourselves?
Thanks Kyle and Joe for your responses. They are helpful. And truthfully, I mostly agree with you. I'm playing a little devil's advocate here, because those who know me well, know that I tend to be fairly unconcerned with outward appearance.
BUT...I want to touch on a few of your points, Kyle. In the first part of your comment, you answered my question about whether or not wanting to look good outwardly is sinful. As best I can tell, none of those Scriptures you referenced suggest that beauty is sinful, just that it is unimportant. That's a big difference. I'm eating Cheerios right now. That's pretty unimportant, but it's not sinful. I would say that the sin comes in when we judge people (including ourselves) by outward appearance and/or when we invest more energy into beautifying our bodies than we do our hearts. You also brought up the idea of it being fleeting and our calling to fix our minds on what is lasting and eternal. I think that's a great point! I love it.
Regarding Song of Songs, I've heard varying interpretations. I won't get into that. I would agree that the union expressed in SoS is not just a physical one. But it certainly doesn't shy away from acknowledging and enjoying the physical beauty. So I guess what I'm getting at is the possibility that beauty and desiring beauty may not be inherently sinful. We desire and enjoy lots of things that are unimportant: food, hobbies, fragrant candles. :) But the moment any of these things becomes as immportant or more important than worshipping God, exhibiting virtues, and bearing fruit, then it would become sinful.
Does that make sense? What do y'all think?
I think that the main idea Piper is purporting with "redeeming the body in marriage" is what we have received from Christ (grace), we now are commanded to show to our spouse, and when we look at his/her body, we are to show them the same grace that Christ showed on the cross to sinners. In a sense, this type of grace can only be experienced in a biblical, godly marriage, and it is a beautiful thing.
Joe Arant
First, to Kyle, the "stinky" social psychology that you kind of take a jab at will be the same underlying theories on how to effectively communicate a sermon. Psychological theories can be used for His glory or used for selfish gain. It is not a black and white issue.
Second, I think it says infinitely more about us as children of God to have a healthy self-esteem in a world that only wants you to value certain traits. The sole purpose of advertising is to create a sense of deficiency in people so they will buy their product to correct it. Hence, our warped view of what defines human beauty.
It is in Scripture that the fall did come AFTER all things were created and called "good". To say that we are born utterly worthless and sinful is to say that the fall came before creation. It is true, however, that because of the fall we are tainted. We were created masterfully wonderful by God, sin has reversed this beauty, and Christ has come to reverse the reversal. It seems to me that we should value beauty in a healthy way. How do you do that, to the glory of God of course.
People were created for wonderful things. The root of human nature is not sin. It is only after the fall that sin has clouded our eternal perspective and tainted our character. Our goal should be to value ourselves as people with something to offer the world. To live knowing that we are something special that was created for more than simply existing in this backwards world. Our job as Christians is to help others find the same value God sees in them.
John Rankin has much to say on this kind of issue. If you can find his books, read them.
Nate
I am Karen's husband.
I believe that the Bible is very Christ centered. What I do not believe is that feeling good about yourself and honoring Christ are mutually exclusive. I would posit that in the midst of honoring Christ one should also feel warmth toward the self. It is because of Him that we have life. It is because of him that we have hope. He Himself has valued us all enough to face a grisly death. If He sees that in me then I see no reason not to feel the same way. To see no value in myself, a creation of God, is likened to the pottery spitting in the potters face.
I echo the same concerns about telling all children they are good at every turn. Competent psychologists would tell you that you are only serving to set them up for disaster--disaster both temporally as well as eternally.. All of us need the truth about our failures to live up to temporal and eternal standards. We also need the truth that God created us to be with Him for eternity. He even sent His only Son to accomplish this goal. In summation, He wanted to restore the worth He saw in us at our conception.
When I speak about sin superseding creation I am speaking about our Christian ethics--our way of relating to others. If we are to start out by talking about sin before we talk about creation we would not be following Biblical doctrine. If we begin to relate to others by starting with this idea of total depravity, and use that as a frame of reference for the rest of the conversation, we are switching from
creation->sin->redemption to
sin->redemption. The latter model lacks an original state to revert to which is why using it can get people focused on depraved humanity. And it is not as if humanity is without blemish because of sin. You say, "The original constitution of man was good and righteous, but that image has been skewed." It is a statement I concur with; however, to say that our original constitution is "no longer" seems erroneous. It has been skewed, but not lost. Thank God He instituted the redemptive process to recover what Satan had hidden from us. We have to relate to others through God's original purpose for us and then explain to them that the problems that occurred only to then offer the solution. So I still agree with Psalms and Romans. Humans have been tainted, but we yearn for a brokenness to be restored, even as Paul did. It is then redemption that closes the gap and allows us to flourish again.
How do we value beauty to the glory of God? We simply appreciate the world, and people within it, that He has given us. We honor Him by thanking Him for the beauty in it and by doing all we can to preserve that beauty. When I honor my wife by serving her and letting her know she is beautiful in my eyes I am doing what Christ has done to all. What is beauty? Beauty is very subjective in some contexts. In a Biblical one we would want to mimic what God has seen as beautiful in His eyes. Other than that it is a topic for a discussion of aesthetics I am not prepared to handle. What wonderful things were we created for? Glorifying God. That, however, is not the end of the story. We can glorify Him in many many ways. Value Christ or ourselves? As I had mentioned at the beginning of this post that I think honoring the good that God has bestowed in us is part of honoring Christ.
Thanks for the remarks Nate. I think you bring up some good points about beauty. I understand that you believe we should be content with our bodies because God gave them to us. I think we're starting to come full circle with this post, but yet have a lot to say. I must ask a few questions of you Nate because i want to understand more of where you're coming from. Please don't feel offended by them- in fact don't feel you need to answer them if you'd rather not. I really just want to understand more of your thoughts. You said
"We also need the truth that God created us to be with Him for eternity. He even sent His only Son to accomplish this goal. In summation, He wanted to restore the worth He saw in us at our conception."
2 quick ones; Are we talking about just Christians? Many theologians would say that God did not necessarily create us to be with Him, but we are created to bring Him glory in either salvation or damnation (see Kyle's previous comment). But that's a little off topic. Also, what do you mean "at conception?" What "worth" did He see in us at conception that we wouldn't have later in life? Maybe i'm just a bit confused with the terms, please correct me. Is that the same "worth" that you call "good in us" at the end of the post? Can you desribe that "good that God bestows in us" a little more. Are you talking about grace? We know that there is only one who does good, and Jesus is the only truly "good" person. We can do no good apart from God, and all good things stem from Him. So i'm wondering about your terminology. Thanks for helping me out.
The pottery spitting in the potter's face goes back to more of what was touched on earlier, whether God created our bodies the way they are, or if sin has corrupted them. I think we took from Psalm 51 that we were concieved and formed in sin.
And i really like what you say about creation being first. Also something touched on a bit earlier but probably not enough. You're right, we are created in God's image, then lose that creation. One of the reasons i sometimes use a pre-fab gospel outline that i do is because it actually starts with creation in God's image, and many don't to their fault. You're absolutely right, we need to keep that in perspective, because God will redeem and reconcile His fallen creation. Thanks for the comments and help!
"If He sees that in me then I see no reason not to feel the same way." So the passion of Christ was about what Christ "saw" in us?
When I say conception I am speaking of when God spoke humans as a species into existence. God "conceived" us in that manner--I will admit I used the term rather ambiguously.
The worth I speak of is the inherent in God's decision to make us, in His image no less. When Adam and Eve were created they walked with God in the garden. I do not see God first creating and then allowing us to be in His very presence a being that He did not credit worth to.
I believe that he extended the ability to live out His ways to all people. He created us with the ability to do good things. That is the good that has been bestowed to us. Of course I always go back to the fact that sin has distorted this greatly. I do know that we are born into sin, but not in such a way that we are inherently evil. We come into a reversed world that is distorted by sin that lends to our sinfulness from our earliest days. The image of God still remains waiting for us to respond to His redemptive call. And all of this is because of grace so in a sense you can equate grace, worth, etc.
I understand that He created us in part to glorify Himself, but I do not see how that would negate His creating us to have a relationship with Him for eternity.
To Anonymous, as I mentioned earlier it is inherent in His decision to create and redeem that He saw worth enough in His creation to do such things. You seem to ask the question as if you feel I am saying that it was human nature that caused God to create and redeem. What I am saying is that the worth God chose to give us worth and subsequently chose to redeem us in part because of that.
Wow. It's getting interesting. Kate, did you ever think this post would generate this much discussion and take the direction it has taken?!
I just want to interject something here. It's not relevant, but it is. ;) What I am about to say is not directed to any one individual participating in this conversation. I bring it up because it's something that I've had to discipline myself in, and I hope that others will be edified by what I'm learning. So here we go:
Most of you know that I enjoy vigorous discussion, but one thing I've had to learn to do is let go. I have some "recreational debater" tendencies, and that is not always negative. But there is a time for pushing and prodding and a time for accepting and resting. I try to judge it by asking myself the question, "Do I understand this person's point? Do they understand mine?" If the answer is "no", then we keep going. But if the answer is "yes", and I keep going with the intent to prove, win, or persuade, then I begin to enter the risky territory of taking something too far. I'm not suggesting that we jump ship when things get complicated or messy. No way! I'm not even suggesting that anyone here has taken it too far. I just thought now would be a good time to share this thought. And I would encourage everyone to check their motivations and do their best to judge when a conversation ceases to be beneficial.
That's all for now. Carry on, ladies and gentlemen! :)
I recommend reading the "First the Gospel, Then Politics..." books by John C. Rankin. They are good reads and they sum up my viewpoint better than I can. (Check him out at http://www.teinetwork.com/)
Now, another question about body image: how do we view those who do things like weight training? Is it proper to do things like that to take care of our body image? I personally think so as I enjoy weight training and other physical activities. 1 Timothy 4:7,8 tells us that physical training has some value. If we also take into account the dietary laws once imposed it also was important to God for people to eat wisely. I am eager to hear thoughts.
Nate
Wow, i am impressed at how well we've kept the main idea of the post so far, but feel we may b on the verge of diverting our attention to other topics. I will post a question about recreational debating on my blog (you can find a link on this blogs sidebar) for those who might be interested in that.
Thanks for asking another good question Nate. I was asked this about 10 times after a talk i gave recently, and answered it with the same 1 Sam. 16:7 verse that has appeared here before- which states that man looks at physical appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart. Now i don't want to stretch the application of this, so call me out on it. But it would seem to me that our motives for physical training are to be tested. God is not impressed with our bodies, but people surely are. Why do we work out? To glorify God or to glorify ourselves? We must take good care of our bodies in worship of God, and people like Jim Elliot worked out to be ready for whatever God called them to, although even he admitted that he did not do it out of completely pure motives. It is sin to work out with the thought of attracting more attention from people, but it is worshipful to work out to take care of the temple of the Holy Spirit. Again, i am only repeating things that were said earlier, so i won't elaborate here. Thanks for so many good thoughts!
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